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CAS forum sparks debate between faculty and students

Published: Wednesday, December 9, 2009

Updated: Thursday, December 10, 2009 05:12

Student Government President Krystal Weaver (right) and SG Vice President Rachael Wise (left) voice

Joe Griffith / IC

Student Government President Krystal Weaver (right) and SG Vice President Rachael Wise (left) voice their concerns over a recent blog post on the College of Arts and Sciences Forum during Tuesday’s Arts and Sciences Council meeting.

David Nemeth (center, in-focus), a professor of geography and planning, listens to Student Governmen

Joe Griffith / IC

David Nemeth (center, in-focus), a professor of geography and planning, listens to Student Government President Krystal Weaver during Tuesday’s ASC meeting. Weaver came to the meeting to address her concerns over a recent post Nemeth made on the CAS Forum, which some have interpreted as having racist connotations.


Phrases such as "opening the floodgates" and "inviting the playground into our classrooms" are used as analogies referring to students being admitted from urban school districts into the College of Arts and Sciences. The use of these analogies by one CAS faculty member has sparked concerns of racism at UT among some students and faculty members.

In his post on the Arts and Sciences College Forum entitled, "Hub of Mediocrity: Inviting the Playground into Our Classrooms," David Nemeth, a professor of geography and planning, criticizes recommendations on how to make the CAS in the top tier ranking among arts and sciences colleges nationwide.

Nemeth said recruiting and retaining "academically unmotivated students" from urban areas is counterproductive when trying to bring the CAS into "top tier" rankings.

"The floodgates are already opening up: the discipline problems and anti-academic attitudes that have already trashed the academic aspirations of our urban public primary and secondary schools are apparently soon to be invited, accommodated and formally implemented into our own [CAS] curriculum, scholarship, teaching/learning modalities, space and graduate studies," Nemeth said in his blog post.

According to a mass e-mail sent anonymously to the UT community on Saturday, titled "More racist filth from the College of Arts and Sciences Council Blog," the comments posted by Nemeth are indirectly racially charged.

"David, I'm sorry you don't like students from ‘urban public primary and secondary schools' in your class, but believe it or not, not all minority students (because that is what ‘urban' is code for, and everybody knows it, David) have ‘discipline problems and anti-academic attitudes,'" the anonymous e-mail said.

Student Government President Krystal Weaver, a senior majoring in pharmacy, said the post was offensive because it attacks UT's recruitment processes.

"They are attacking these students by saying they don't care about their academics, which is completely untrue. They have a 3.5 GPA; obviously they're making an effort to come to college and it's not a real representation of who they are. I took offense to it because although I'm not personally a UT Guarantee student, I feel I represent them," Weaver said.

During Tuesday's ASC meeting, Weaver addressed the council asking for individuals to stand up with her against the claims made by Nemeth.

Weaver also brought a written statement to address Nemeth's blog posts to the Board of Trustees Academic and Student Affairs Committee on Monday.

Weaver said people need to be conscientious of what they say.

"Even saying that there are people who are from suburbs … are academically unmotivated … to associate academic un-motivation with urban students is unfair to say so — it's not a true representation of all urban students no matter what their race is," she said.

Ashley Pryor, associate professor of women's studies, said in an e-mail that she is concerned about the way the message will be interpreted by prospective urban students.

"I hope faculty will be concerned about what students (and colleagues at other institutions, and our constituents throughout the state of Ohio) will see on this blog if they visit. Consider this entry, posted a few days ago by an anonymous blogger: ‘If I am reborn in this World as a UT A&S College professor I will consider inviting student clickers, tweeters, cell phones and other recreational devices into my classroom. Just allow me my taser.' Just what kind of message are we sending to our students with this kind of talk?," Pryor said.

Nemeth said his words are being misinterpreted.

"What is racism? This person says urban means minority. In this department, urban means city. It doesn't mean color or race or anything," he said. "There's a lot of pain caused by this e-mail. If this wouldn't have been widely distributed, then Krystal and Rachel wouldn't have been at the meeting and protesting something they didn't understand. I would be happy if this situation would turn into a teaching event or fade away without hurting anyone's feelings."

Pryor said though Nemeth characterizes disciplinary problems and anti-academic attitudes as a problem in urban schools he "never acknowledges that under-prepared, unmotivated and undisciplined students also come from our suburban schools."

Nemeth said though it may be Weavers job to stand for the student body, she looked into the anonymous e-mail without examining the facts.

"You can't blame Krystal for paying attention to the politics of Arts and Sciences. I found it unfortunate she had a resolution but didn't know any of the details that she was promoting the resolution for," he said. "She didn't know much about the roundtable obviously, and she had read [the e-mail] and it sounded to me that the resolution was based on this as if it was factual and not based on any details in the post that I posted."

Jamie Barlowe, chair of women's and gender studies, applauded Weaver for bringing the issue to the ASC.

"As those of us who work on issues of discrimination know, intentions are not the relevant point. Ms. Weaver was not assigning motives or impugning the intentions of the commentators, but instead was concerned about their negative implications and consequences," she said. "As faculty we have, I believe, a responsibility to consider the implications of what we say and to think about the ways our comments are received by various audiences, particularly students."

But Brian Patrick, associate professor of communication, said he felt Weaver tried to ambush the ASC.

"I thought this was kind of a cheap publicity trick," he said. "But I still think people should read things before they talk about this."

Though Nemeth's post is seen as racist by some, Nemeth said his post was noting more than a disagreement with the roundtable recommendations to bringing the CAS to "top tier" status.

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43 comments

Mike Staveskie
Sat Dec 26 2009 19:43
Mathew Davenport

Posting on this forum I'm guessing your a UT student, as a UT student I wouldn't encourage people leaving the University just for adding to this discussion. This is an important topic that affects many students on campus I was just suggesting a way to actually make this conversation worth while. Maybe the library will see this post and get serious with their rules or maybe someone from student government will do something about it. I understand this is a public institution but its a STUDENT library where rules need to be enforced. I'm not talking about kicking people out who go on facebook but its the fact that there is constant chatter and other distractions (people talking to people, people YELLING at other people, and cellphone chit chat) ALL THE TIME,

Maybe we can do something to make UT a little better for everyone instead of just tearing people down, thats what my point is...

annoyed
Wed Dec 16 2009 12:05
It is racist to assume that "urban" refers to minorities. I was raised in an urban environment. Anyone who has been to a metropolitan area knows they contain all different age groups, ethnic groups, and social classes.
alum continued
Wed Dec 16 2009 11:54
Dr. Nemeth has chaired many theses of a variety of topics. Check out his bio before you make assumptions about his character. Furthermore, I know that Dr. Nemeths comments stem from the fact that he is one of the few teachers at UT who actually cares whether or not his students learn. He is one of the few teachers that tries to make his students learn how to think, learn how to ask questions, and challenge traditional ideas. He understands that helping students expand their minds will help them in the real world as well as in academia. This task is difficult in a society that wants everything handed to them quickly and for free. Students who don't want to learn are a hinderance to this process. A college education is for those who are willing to earn it. If there are people in a class who are not ready for the material being presented, it will hold the rest of the class back from what they need to accomplish. Therefore, it is only fair for the university to admit only the students who can handle college requirements. Education is not a charity.
Alum
Wed Dec 16 2009 10:58
As Dr. Nemeth is a professor in the dept of GEOGRAPHY AND PLANNING, urban refers to city life. It has nothing to do w/ racism. It is Ignorant and equally hateful for anyone who does not know Dr Nemeth to claim that he is a racist or biased about any one specific culture. Set one foot in his office and you will know how ridiculous this assumption is. I will never forget one trip to his office. I asked him about his miscellaneous collection of religious and cultural items and his was reply was that as a professor he needed to be able to relate to every student that walked through his door.
Bob
Wed Dec 16 2009 09:55
UT may be a public institution but we still have the ability to ensure incoming students meet certain academic programs, in fact many of our degree require very specific courses and higher GPA. As faculty who develop programs and teach courses we certainly have every right to discuss and debate students admitted to our programs, and many academic programs led by faculty at UT do have higher admission standards and expectations (many students do end out failing or dropping out of programs due to poor grades). We also have every right to complain and concerned about students who are unprepared and lack the motivation to actually come to class and do the work. Finally even as a public institution there are rules that need to be followed, no one has the right even at UT to stay here (including in a class, lab, room, or library) if they fail to follow such rules. Just because you pay for your education and UT is a public institution does not give you the right to do simply as you please. If the library decided to enforce its rules it certainly could remove students.
Matthew Davenport
Tue Dec 15 2009 19:38
First off i beleive its not the professors perrogative to whom they teach being University of Toledo is a public learning institution. I feel if they dont like the students they are teaching, find a job at a private institution like Lourdes College. Otherwise they need to keep there mouths shut and do their job of teaching. Secondly to this Mike Staveskie, theres not much Carlson Library can do or UT can do for that matter about the library situation as this institution is PUBLIC meaning equal access to everyone. If you dont like our library transfer to Owens or Lourdes or BGSU, but even there you will run into the same problem. Same thing with Public Libraries, they are PUBLIC, not private. So legally they cant throw anyone out for being on facebook or myspace or talking on their cellphone. I see people eating blatantly all the time in the library despite the signs posted saying NO FOOD. The students dont care and believe since they pay money to go to UT they have the right to eat or do what they want, and being its a PUBLIC college, theres not much that UT can do about it.
Geoff
Tue Dec 15 2009 11:01
Mike Staveskie -

Furthermore, I challenge anyone to go to any of the other floors at Carlson library, and spend an hour or two trying to study under a sign that says "quiet area." Apparently there is an epidemic illiteracy on main campus, as most people who come in apparently cannot read the "quiet area" signs posted everywhere. The Carlson library is a zoo, the Mulford library is becoming one, and the law library illegally bans UT students from studying there. Maybe they have the right idea over there at law.

Mike Staveskie
Mon Dec 14 2009 21:37
While on the subject of mediocrity I challenge everyone who reads this to go to CARLSON LIBRARY any week day night on the first floor. I am disgusted with how UT runs carlson library, it is a zoo in there with people talking on cell phones, listening to music on their phones, and the fact that a majority of students are on facebook or myspace. How do you promote academics in a place like that?
Just the other night I had to fill out an electronic survey so I went to the library to do that...I couldnt even concentrate because of all the distractions with people on cell phones and yelling across the room to check out facebook. I challenge Krystal Weaver to do something about that facility if she wants to make a lasting impact on the UT campus.

Instead of speaking about lacking academic preparedness or calling out "racism" I encourage both parties to do a survey of their own at Carlson library for actual facts. If no actual survey is done this is just going to be another lost argument that people will forget in 2 weeks and it will also serve as a learning tool for both parties invlolved.

Your name
Mon Dec 14 2009 21:15
While on the subject of mediocrity I challenge everyone who reads this to go to CARLSON LIBRARY any week day night on the first floor. I am disgusted with how UT runs carlson library, it is a zoo in there with people talking on cell phones, listening to music on their phones, and the fact that a majority of students are on facebook or myspace. How do you promote academics in a place like that?

Just the other night I had to fill out an electronic survey so I went to the library to do that...I couldnt even concentrate because of all the distractions with people on cell phones and yelling across the room to check out facebook. I challenge Krystal Weaver to do something about that facility if she wants to make a lasting impact on the UT campus.

Instead of speaking about lacking academic preparedness or calling out "racism" I encourage both parties to do a survey of their own at Carlson library for actual facts. If no actual survey is done this is just going to be another lost argument that people will forget in 2 weeks and it will also serve as a learning tool for both parties invlolved.

JDG
Sun Dec 13 2009 18:32
@Eyeroll. I'm fairly certain I didn't suggest UT would become a diploma mill. Rather, the arts & sciences--not just at UT--face significant challenges going forward. Sorry--no straw people or propaganda in my post.
Eye roll
Sat Dec 12 2009 11:26
It's clear the last few posters have been students of Dr. Nemeth's as they are using the same straw man arguments Nemeth does. The notion that UT is on the verge of becoming a diploma mill is an argument a high school student would have trouble taking seriously and it is absolutely astonishing to me a man with a Ph.D. could make such an argument and be taken seriously by anyone save those lapping up his propaganda as gospel.
JDG
Sat Dec 12 2009 09:12
As a former student of Dr. Nemeth (aka DJN) and having read the original blog post in its entirety, I can assure you that the language and intent of the post was neither racist, demeaning to the students of UT, nor critical of any scholarship program intended to recruit (and reward) high performing students. Rather, Nemeth identifies an array of issues facing institutions like UT such as civility in the classroom and the implications of devoting significant academic and budget resources on recruiting and retaining under-prepared students. While I realize these issues were not explicitly addressed in the single post, these debates have been regular themes on the CAS Faculty Forum and are regularly discussed on higher education blogs and other on-line venues (such as insidehighered.com).

Was the post provocative? Yes, it should have been. The issues facing Colleges of Arts & Sciences--writ large--and their constituent disciplines are many and significant. Specifically, the role of the arts & sciences at institutions like UT is increasing ambiguous as student expectations change (i.e., training/real world experiences v. formal academic experiences) and institution focus their energies on “more professional” programs. The real issues are whether colleges of arts & sciences will continue to serve as the intellectual center of campuses, traditional academic disciplines will be disproportionately impacted by the changing financial realities of higher education, and how emerging pedagogies (often based in the professional schools) may transform the classroom. All of these issues should be rigorously debated. Ultimately, the “playground” post and others address the crisis in academic leadership that has plagued UT in recent years--not its students. Specifically, the full collection of Nemeth posts identify the failure of academic leaders to invest time and resources in understanding the unique needs of CAS (programs, students, and faculty), as well as the proliferation of language and policies that alienate traditional academic disciplines.

Ted Reinhart
Fri Dec 11 2009 17:56
Though a couple may have legitimate reasons for doing so, I find it disappointing that so few of the commenters here are unwilling to attach their name to their post. If you find you're unwilling to associate yourself with your comments, perhaps you should re-examine them to be sure they aren't simply hot-headed accusations made without adequate knowledge or reflection on the matter at hand.
I tend to agree with the post preceding directly mine by "Current A and S Student." I also agree with Dr. Nemeth that this whole debate should be used as a learning experience for all involved. The vicious cycle of underfunding many urban schools experience is a serious issue to be discussed, as is the appropriate action Universities such as UT should take regarding that situation.

In any case, having taken one of Nemeth's classes and talked with him on numerous occasions, I find it difficult to believe his comments were racially motivated.

Current UT A&S Student
Fri Dec 11 2009 17:22
Let's face facts. Obviously, more education is a benefit to both the individual and society. But if the individual is unmotivated and unprepared for a University-level education, they have no right to be here. Urban, suburban, rural, black, white, whatever label you want to attach to a person, it doesn't matter. There's this new sense of entitlement that just because you're paying money to attend college, you deserve a degree - this is simply not true and is not the way that ANY credible University has operated before. We should not be a "diploma mill."
Rather than jumping immediately to race, let's think about this for a moment. It is generally accepted that urban school districts have lower success rates than suburban schools. Why is that? Could it be in anyway related to the way that Ohio funds its public schools? You know...the process that has been declared unconstitutional by the Ohio Supreme Court multiple times? As long as the primary tax burden is placed directly on the community where the school is located (thus creating a cycle of failure of poor areas not being able to fund their schools and rendering them poor as well) we will continue to have unprepared and unmotivated students. Fix the source. Kudos to Dr. Nemeth for bringing this debate to light.
Um
Fri Dec 11 2009 14:56
I think Dr. Nemeth knows what urban means. Doesn't he teach anthro? People are taking THEIR preconcieved notion of urban and assuming it means "minority." Not the case. There are successful urban schools. Whitmer and Start are considered urban. But these are exceptions to the rules. Urban schools are hurting bad because of NCLB, and are less prepared for college than ever before.

How would Krystal Weaver feel if all prospective urban students (black, white, green, who cares?) were allowed admittance into Pharmacy with a 3.2gpa , when everyone typically needs a 3.8. I guarantee she'd look down her nose at everyone a little less if her college wasn't one of the "best."

Appalled
Fri Dec 11 2009 12:41
What I wanna know is where we pick up our A & S white hoods for graduation. Seems like we're only a few steps away from that now...
Bob
Thu Dec 10 2009 17:15
"Jack, if you want to pretend UT's only prominent recruitment program in urban schools isn't the program "

Because the UT Guarantee is not the only recuitment program in urban schools, only the most recent one and with attractive tuition incentives, but UT has been recruiting from these schools for years.

As to the sucess of the UT Guarantee let's wait a few more years and then look at GPAs, retention and graduation rates from this program.

I would also like the chance to see the current data on incoming high school GPAs, retention and graduation rates for all incoming direct from high school students into UT and A&S from the last 10 years, to see what exactly we are dealing with in terms of the quality of students we are recuiting, regardless of which schools or cities they come from. I would think such data (especially if compared to other public universities in Ohio) would be very revealing and insight in this debate.

Your name
Thu Dec 10 2009 16:47
Jack, I copied and pasted Nemeth's words directly from his blog post. How much more factual do you want?
Jack
Thu Dec 10 2009 16:28
To the previous poster: Your private suppositions, whether right or wrong, are no substitute for an accurate reporting of the facts.
Your name
Thu Dec 10 2009 15:25
Sure he did.

"If so, this initiative seems counter-productive and especially unfair to the expectations of the academically-motivated A&S College student high-achievers we have recruited. We have in fact promised them an excellent liberal arts education and satisfying academic experience on this campus.

"The floodgates are already opening up: the discipline problems and anti-academic attitudes that have already trashed the academic aspirations of our urban public primary and secondary schools are apparently soon to be invited, accommodated and formally implemented into our own A&S College curriculum, scholarship, teaching/learning modalities, space and graduate studies."

Jack, if you want to pretend UT's only prominent recruitment program in urban schools isn't the program Nemeth was referring to when he wrote about urban schools and UT recruitment programs, that's fine. I know some flat-earth people and some "where's Barack Obama's birth certificate" people you can talk to.







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